DataFramed
DataFramed

Episode · 11 months ago

#78 How Data & Culture Unlock Digital Transformation

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When most people hear digital transformation, it’s almost always the technology that first springs to mind.

That’s a mistake.

You can have the most sophisticated tech stack in the world, but if you don't build your organization’s data culture, your digital transformation efforts will be for naught.

Today’s guest, Mai AlOwaish, Chief Data Officer at Gulf Bank, knows this better than anyone. As the first female CDO in Kuwait, she’s on a mission to ensure everyone at Gulf Bank becomes an expert in the data they use every day.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Why data and people are more important than technology for digital transformation
  • The pioneering Data Ambassador program Mai spearheaded at Gulf Bank
  • The importance of diversity in data science and technology overall

Find every episode of DataFramed on Apple, Spotify, and more. Find us on our website and join the conversation on LinkedIn. Listening on a desktop and can’t see the links? Just search for DataFramed in your favorite podcast player. 

You're listening to data framed, the podcast by data camp. In this show you'll hear all the latest trends and insights in data science. Whether you're just getting started in your data career or you're a data leader looking to scale data driven decisions in your organization, join us for indepth discussions with data and analytics leaders at the forefront the data revolution. Let's dive right in. Hello everyone, this is Adell, data science educator and evangelist a data camp. Something we've always spoken about on data framed is how organizations are adapting their culture, skills, technology, processes and more to a rapidly changing and increasingly digitized world. One thing I always hope to achieve with this podcast is to help others understand how they can change their own organizations and make them more data driven through others experiences, and there's no better experience to share than my low wishes. May Our wish is the chief data officer at Golf Bank. She is a seasoned information systems in datalytics expert with eighteen years of experience between Kuwait and the United States, where she's spearheaded a variety of datalytics in ECOMMERCE initiatives and enable digital transformation for financial institutions, retailers, airlines and more. In Our current position, may leads the dataalytics practice and Golf Bank and oversees the data strategy and implementation of data science and EALYTICS use cases. My has orchestrated the datambassadors program to start a data driven culture and enable business users to self serve with ealytics across the organization. Throughout the episode we speak about my background, the CD or role and how it's evolving, the cultural and people dimensions of Data and digital transformation, the data ambassador program at Golf Bank, how to increase diversity, inclusion and data science and more. Now let's dive right in. My it's great to have you on the show and I'm excited about our discussion today. You have a very wide range of experiences across industries such as retail, consulting, a commerce banking across a wide range of locations. You're currently the chief data officer of Golf Bank, one of the largest retail banks in Kuwait. I'd love to hear your journey, how it has culminated a new current role and how you view the role of the chief date officer evolving ever since you joined the industry. Thank you. Other it's a pleasure to be here. Honestly, my journey has been an ECOMMERCE and, you know, ending up in data and I always tell my team members that I've just kind of followed the trend what it want. By the beginning of my journey started with banking, of course, and I was focused on like online banking and kind of the digital transformations in the early two thousand so back then having an online banking or phone banking was the concept of digital transformation and in a way we didn't realize the data aspect of it. It was more about technology and now digital transformation is about data and that's kind of slowly how I event from doing digital banking and then I focused on working with good partners in the past...

...ten years with data and analytics solution and you know, I always say the past ten years were pure data analytics. The previously, the prior ten years to that, we're purely banking. And now my role is kind of you know, involves everything that I did in the past twenty years, where I'm mixing all of the digital banking with the data analytics to do to establish the datalytics office here. That's really great. And in terms of the CD or role, you know there's been consistent evolution on that front. How do you view the CDOM ended today, and especially when it comes to large scale data transformation projects? I think it's you know, some some of some people think of the data officer role is somebody who just does the data analytics and in my way I think it's more about knowing that we have a data as an asset and that every single department real lies that the data that they touch is contributing to the overall organizations objectives. So one of the key things I see that data officers really have to do is really teach up the organization to to learn about data, know that every single person in the organization touches data. There is no organization right now, we'll have somebody sting at a computer, either crunching a report or reading a report, and that's what I see. That such is the chief data officer role is to make sure that they are a win of their kind of role as a person who's dealing with data and they are stakeholder in the data. Now you mentioned your experience in digital transformation. In there in two thousands. Of course, digital transformation is still major today. Has Been a priority for financial services and banking institutions for the past decade. Has Been Only accelerated by the COVID nineteen pandemic given less years acceleration. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the State of digital transformation banking today and the type of value banks are able to unlock with it. I think what the pandemic did is is kind of just act, like he said, accelerated the digital transformation. It was I need. It's a transformation started a while ago. Before that maybe they were, you know, given a priority, but not as much as at the urgency that the pandemic added. One thing that that we saw out of this digital transformation is received the huge influx of Detai, and I've seen it not only in bacts, even in the past few years when I work with ECOMMERCE. Once the pandemic hits, all of these customers coming into retail store, like the brick and mortar stores, they were coming online, leaving digital footprints everywhere on our website, giving us easy behaviors to see and starting for us. We started like throwing personal is about the customers that we know and it just added a lot of value to the data set that we already had, but we did not know who is doing one, especially for those walking in the stores and doing and at the same thing applies to the bank. Many people love going to the branch and doing that experience. Once they started doing those stuff digital, they stuck to the digital channel and now it's for us. It's easier to roll up that...

...detail. It's easy for us to throw the customer experience through the customer journey because we have it in a digital format already. In a way it's become much easier for us on the data and digital side to analyze and in a much faster way, instead of waiting for the customer to come in and ask them to fill a survey or ask them for their experience, it's already coming in the format that we were wishing that it comes when in a few years ago, and I think there's a lot of value to unlock and that and, as anything when we collect data, it's usually the first few months we were trying to collect more data, but then we wait for more data to find trends and draw some models and all of that stuff. We already have a year in right now or more, and we're going to build on that ongoing because, as I said, people are staying with a digital even though things are opening up. Some people are comfortable now doing their transaction digitally more than coming into the branch or coming to the store, and I think that's where we're seeing that. Some businesses thought that the lose that digital footprint, but it didn't go away. It's still there, it's still strong and although people still come to the branch, but they still do stuff online, and that means we're able to build more and more with data going forward. So as golf banks chief their officer, you're at the forefront of digital transformation isiatives. So I'd love to hear with thoughts on how intertwined digital transformation and data transformation are and where do you think they intersect or not? I mean, so as I met should a while to go, that you know previously digital transformation was pure technology effort, that you're taking a transaction or some kind of process that is happening manually and he trying to digitize it. Now you know in the current age digital transformation is about being client centric, about exactly what they want, and we know that when can we push this product to the client, because we know that he is at this phase of the purchase or our the customer journey. So, with the current approach of digital transformation, being client centric requires a lot of data. But this client and that's what we say, we really need a lot of data to become client centric or to perform that digital transformation. It kind of become part and necessary part of digital transformation to first build the data platforms and then go into the digital transformation. Otherwise, if I'm building a customer journey and planning the journey without knowing exactly what the customer needs, there's no way for me to to push the right product or to assess that this customer is actually planning to maybe close the account because of a certain behavior that we sew and and we won't be able to take the right action unless we have the right data. So to me it became kind of an integral part of the transformation right now, and it's not just a technology as. I'd love to deep dive specifically into how you know, data or digital transformation projects are not just technology initiatives. Now, given the importance of data transformation within digital transformation, projects. I wonder why...

...you view as the key lever of acceleration in these types of programs. Do you think, in that regards, support technology or people driven in how? Sir, so, when we talk about digital transformation within the company, I think, and I always say, it's people, people, people that technology, because if you get the right technologies in place and you get, you know, top of a line data platforms and all of that stuff, if people are used to extracting that excel sheet and and and then crunching it into something, that'll still do it data. You ad digital transformation if you have that, I. Data, if you have the right platforms, but a own people or just their own mindset on people, it will not succeed and you'll still be stuck into the pre digital transformation data. And I think part of it is not just educating people on these tools but actually building a culture for it, building the actual bridging that digital transformation, how it adds up to their value and how it kind of roll up into the whole organization objectives and strategy and all of that stuff. One one thing that I've seen, you know, kind of make or break transformation is the people who are not just leading it is the people are involved and affected by this transformation, because the people affected by the transformation, they can they can just not make it happen because if they they're not sold into that transformation, if they don't transform, when you transform your solutions and systems and all that stuff, it's it's not going to help them go anywhere and it's going to make your transformation really not mean one. So the key fact that is really start with the people, then go to the technology and and that's kind of something that I'm a firm believer it and I've seen it happen more than once, that when we start with the people, things go on. If we start to the technology and then remember what the people need to do, transformation will fail. Do you think then, it's a misnomer for the industry to settle on the term digital transformation with necessarily doubling down on the data or people aspect of it? I think so astly, because, you know, you say digital transformation and it has to do a lot with data, has a lot with people. You know, digitizing the process doesn't mean you actually going to get it right if you don't have the right data. Digitizing the process where people are not you know, informed of how this process affect their day to day process. Doesn't mean that this dishes transmoration is going to go through. One of the things that I think we struggle with this is is naming. There's like, and I see it all the time, like I'm called the chief data officer, technically the chief data and analytics officers. There is this chief digital officer and you know, there's chief information officer, which that are technically id but they there to talk about the the CIO or information, but it's more of a chief technology officer. So sometimes I don't like to use all of those names because they might really confuse confuse us on the right agenda. I I love how you said that. You know, it could be a misnomer. I totally feel that and I think for probably lack a better name or just...

...because digital makes sense to everybody. Yeah, I definitely feel like it's very hard to sell the term people transformation. Yes, yes, then they'll go, okay, that's not us, that's it. Know, that's something they are and it's very different when when we talk about the people aspect of things, and even like if I say, you know, when I started here and a lot of people thinking, oh, so you're doing data as a then you know wen't. You're not really going to be talking to any anybody in the back where you're just focus on the on the system where the data lives, and you're going to extract some reports or systems worse, and I said Nope, actually I work put everybody in the bank, from the branch all the way to management, because everybody, if you're looking at data and your computer, then you are my stakeholder. So if you want to break down the people component, what are the initiatives? You think banks, you know, or other organizations. It's scale in order to transform their culture into a data driven one. So one of the things is that we need to as a bank or as any organization, their first needs to be kind of I hate the word, let you see, but it is a data that you see that you want to start with to make sure know that everybody has a role, that they play with data and and they did. Interest should be organization wide. Honestly, there's no organization right now, big orse more, where data is not used by their team members open and over again throughout the day and not just being used once, but sometimes we used to analyze some more and more every day. So they need to understand kind of what resources to dealing with the assets of of data that they're dealing with. Aside from just basic data literacy, I think one of the things is is trying to identify different people that are key stakeholders and data and in shooting that they belong to a bigger team, which is what we call kind of extended data team or the team that is directly connected to the data office or digital office or whatever we call it. But those people are exactly knowing kind of the journey of data and how things are changing. Otherwise, that the whole journey of transformation. If you don't have the right people and that I caliberis in place, it may may have a hard time kind of getting traction. That's perfect and this marks a great seguent to how you're accelerating their transformation and building a data culture at Golf Bank. So it's been exciting this year with the release of the Data Ambassador Program. I've seen you evangelize this program across social channels. It's been great seeing it unfold from the sideline. Do you mind expanding into what the program entails and what are its goals? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's been over linked in and I think I think the teammate it's so much fun with all the past and all that stuff. It went viral and I think one of the key things that they made this program go bout it it was people focused on very much people focused. The way that that we had this data ambassad program kind of orchestrated is that, like I just said, we realize that every single department in the bank works with...

...data, whether it's even if it's not client data, even if it's just data that use for a day to day operations, even if it's, like I say, Facilities Department, which you know they manage buildings as on, but they do some reports internally. So anybody who's extracting, working with data is identified as an ambassador and the bank and we had a hundred and fourteen ambassadors out of almost one thousand. Five hundred and eighteen hundred kind of staff along operation stuff. So I don't ten percent of the banking went through this program. And the way we praise this program is that we add a data office, we have a data team, but then there's the extended data team which are kind of the army of people working with data and embedded in every single department. These people need to know what what we're doing with data and need to have us say in how the the future of data and analytics and and you know, whether Roman thing data, the unity or we're moving into a new analytics platform, I cannot decide on because the bank and I build practices for the overall good, kind of the common good of the bank. But my stakeholders need to be involved as part of this trust. And the way we did this is that what yes, we identified all the people who are working with data across the bank, but that doesn't mean I just identify them and give them work. First I have to teach them and I have to kind of do kind of a training program because before we start working with data, we need to know kind of the data roles and responsibilities. And and the way we started kind of we've done a five month program for these data ambassadors once they were recognized and what we call it the nomination process. So we did a big nomination process, but every department nominated the ambassors and the way they were nominated is that these are the people are doing my day to day reports or desire the people who are really creating data for me in that part. So we group those people and then we wanted to make sure that when because of the large number. But we know we are a great with a big organization. So a hundreds of forty people, I cannot get them in one training room. It's not going to be effective. So we call them kind of we group them in batches, which is a maximum of twenty per group, and then with the grouping we make sure that people from different departments and in each group. I don't want a single department per group. Otherwise they won't be communication across the organization, because communication is key when it comes to data, because at data that is created at the branch is used in finance and then finance creates a report and risk use it for their you know, risk analysis, and the risk does something which the management uses for, you know, taking decision. So all of these different stakeholders need to have proper communication channels together and that's how this data ambassadors program brought all of these people into the same platform. They go through a five month training program where first they learn about the roles and responsibilities and then they learn about data quality and then they will learn more about kind of how to improve the...

...quality of data. How do they manage data going forward? What are the certain things that we need to worry about, the kind of the data cleansing or how do we actually create really good data that is valuable and that great its insight? So all of the training program and then there's some tooling. First we started the concept, we start to do the people and and we launch this program this last month and on October. So we'll be wrapping up in February, March. And once they are done with that training, then they are identified as the ambassador for their department. They are able to help their department with any anything data and then they work with us as the data office, to be their kind of lifeline into anything that they need to do new something for for their department. If they're the data expert in the team and they need kind of more help in something or they have ideas, then they have the platform of the data and pastors, which is more kind of a club, but everybody did and and and the ideas. Even once we've done with this training program or I told there, I told the departments we're not done with them after this training we're really going to have kind of those those monthly meetups for all the analystor or the databasas, because there's a lot of value in getting those people together and the same room communicating and talking. That's wonderful when I love how much emphasis there is around the community and how bottom up this transformation program is and not vice versa. You mentioned here. It's a five month program that goes from concepts at tools and so and so forth. Can you walk me through the process of creating a data curriculum for your organization and why and how did you prioritize the skills that you choose a prioritize? So currently it and I love a call it curriculum, given the three data camp and all about learning and curriculums. And it's funny we actually use the same word. We didn't. We didn't use training program or something. I said. There is the ambassador curriculum and there is the kind of a detail literacy curriculum and and even funny, we call them like data one and one and that's what everybody in the bank kind of the the Datai Literacy or basic data literacy program and then the ambassador series was not one hundred and one. I was two one, just like college, when you know this is the advanced version of of data training. So the one on one they were for everybody in the bank and not for the the ambassadors. This is a curriculum that was intended for everybody in the bank to see as a bank employee, what are my roles and responsibilities to words data, if I am in the branch creating data, and this as and we are even customize that curriculum to the audience. So we have a one one for all the kind of the juniors in the bank, and then one hundred and two for the managers and then one hundred and three. That was for branch and sales, kind of the the front lines of the bank while dealing with clients, and each of those curriculums is kind of had the same concept, but the really customized towards the the data scenarios that they deal with on a daily basis.

For some sorts of managers, is it really looking for issues of how reporting is done for front liners or sales? That really really focusing on when entering client data, this is what you should be doing, and so on. As for the two one series, which is the other curriculum for ambassadors. We kind of customize that because these people do the day to day reporting, they do the analysis, they do the kind of crunching of data, and that's where that the curriculum to a one, is really focused on. That type of work. When you're crunching data, how can you avoid kind of data quality issues, that redundant data? How to deal with it? What to do when there is a problem with, you know, a data stores, and there is some tooling aspects of it. So it creates kind of concepts about data quality and cleansing, but also tools on what's best practices when dealing with big data, when dealing with kind of structured on structure data, because these are people kind of the analyst and the the data scientist of the bank data campus mission. It is to democratize data skills for everyone, closing data skill gaps and helping make better data driven decisions. Data Science and analytics are rapidly shaping every aspect of our lives and our businesses and we're collecting more data than ever before, but not everyone is able to efficiently analyze all that data to extract meaningful insights. Data camp up skills companies and individuals on the skills they need to work with data in the real world. Learn more at data Campcom and what type of tools your prioritize in the program. So, for example, what's the split in terms of coding tools? Verstdays, noncoding? This is a coologous sools right, and it's you know, it's again we had to kind of even slice and diise that further because in the bank we have, like I said, a hundred and forty ambassadors which variance skills and and based on the role, based on their skills, based on what type of work they're doing. They're the tools differ. So there are some kind of the the what we call them the exploder analyst, which are people who are just doing at hockey, porting and and and kind of basic apporting for day to day operation at imports, I would call it, and and these people are kind of trained on tabload for the tooling perspective, and then there are people who are kind of advanced or the powering users, where there's some are or python that they have to do because they're building that into tabla. And these people we kind of when we did the ambassador program we did the break up for what I call them the different batches or different groups, but then we kind of did another break up where we had the power users worths versus the explorers, and then they when we when we do the tool training, we kind of change the whole stuff structure, and it's nice because they get to see different people at different times and that's the whole point, like I said, of the community of ambassadors. I love the granularity that...

...you've applied in the program you know, as a leader, how do you manage these types of cultural or transformation programs? What are some of the best practices that you can share run creating enthusiasm and excitement within the organization? Yeah, that's a great question and honestly, that was one of the biggest things that we wanted to start with, as you know, hammling down before we go onto the critic into the curriculum stuff, because, I said, listen, whenever you say someone leave your job to go to a training, people just don't think that they're going to go have fun and training. And if you tell them, okay, let's do this training online on zoom, they're like, okay, I can teach, turn it on and then you know, kind of give it half of my attention and do other stuff. It's it's that kind of story type of training not being always the things that you know you'll go and have fun and and we wanted to like from day one on that training, we wanted to make sure we have exactly the opposite to make sure that they know that this training, how much does it impact them? kind of giving them a sense of what they're learning in this is going to affect them as an individual, can affect their department and the bank overall. So giving them the big picture helped really those investor engagements you completely engage. So one of the things that I highlighted on the first session you're going through this investor program and we're teaching you how to better use the Dake of the blank or better analyze and and do all of the good stuff with data. Now this may help you at a department and be more kind of creative with your data, be more efficient with your reporting, and that will help kind of the bank bottom line. But at the same thing, once you learned us, there is, and I highlighted kind of different tracks for them on how they can get certified. How does this affect their carryer growth personally as an inbassador, as an employee, as an analyst, and and we now just said, you know, with a sebaster program you can do the certification. Oh, I had like three or four different certifications on that screen, because some people are more focused on, for example, when I said tabload, there's tablo certification for analysts. But then there's some people who are really focused on on kind of the the data dictionaries or data governance and so on, and that's where we said, you know, there is the Damna certifications, where people love to get on that track. There is for risk people. There's tons of different risk specific data certifications. So a lot of people sometimes go on the training and yes, they know this is helping them do there today job, but if they know there's something also in it for their career, that's that helps them really crash. But this is also valuable for me as an individual, and that kind of once you get them hooked on the value of this, and then now that after we started the training, we really need to make it fun people. I think we're we're very excited when we did a lot of the props that all the training and kind of give it that viral aspect. We had a lot of youth in this program, giving them the analyst and most of them are juniors. So so we wanted to make sure that any picture that we took through in the program can become bident and it really helped with previously, when we had some people...

...in the banks, they were saying, you know, may I don't know if I'm be part of this training. I really don't know what data or I'm really not a technical person. Why should I be an ambassador? I get these reports and I review them and that's it. I said, you know what, just that done the procession and we'll talk about it. So those are the people that would they were saying, you know, the beginning, I am I able to to come into the training or do that? They the next session. They were calling my team and they're saying, Oh, when is my next session? I'm excited, you know, to learn more or do more, because they understand that they're part of the learning of this is really kind of for them and that it's Datas for everybody and not for the technical people in the bank. That's amazing and I really appreciate how you approach this with humanity and empathy and how you explain the value of acquiring these skills for your people and further futures. You know, what do you find, outside of skill transformation, to be the most challenging aspect of cultural transformation? I think you know once once we start with with changing these cultures, I mean technology is of course a major driver, you know, and but the the being agile, honestly, is the main, main important part of being in a transformation and and helping you transform fast, because people have become impatient. I think that isn't age, but they expect things to happen and if you wait too long for that project to launch, people may just lose interest. I think that agile process have really kind of provided the great solution for this, because now we learn something, we have some data to give us some feedback, and then we we prioritize, we kind of even optimize it further and do more. So the ability of becoming an agile organization, I think, really helps the transformation change and in terms of whether it's culture out, if it's technology, or of its abilities, even the people that they once they get into that agile mode, they know that they're continuously shifting and they're able to accept changes faster. Prior to that, I mean, people hate change and they would resist it. Every time we change something with that it's a system or a process, people resisted and they'll get mad and you know, they try to stick to their good old ways. But you know, kind of confirming or kind of giving those people that we are going a Giland this is how become agile and and that change is just the only constant and we can live with that. I think it will help people drive those whether it's cultured, whether's process, whether it's anything, it's going to be people who become more flexible and more resilient to those changes. That's awesome and I feel like it must be harder to instill as a quality within the organization Shain rather than data skills, for example. What are some of the tactics that you've used to reinforce a juilty in resilience within your teams? So in terms of data skills, just you know, whenever somebody hears data,...

...they think it's technical, they think it were geeks or really, you know, even one of my howne of the management here is like, you know, I really make your team and they're not really those Dayta geeks with glasses and I said yes, I were not geeks. And you know, data's for everybody. It's not for just highly technical people. Anybody is somebody WHO's working with Datas and even a branch teller, he is somebody who creates data. So He is a stakeholder in the STATA game. He doesn't need to be an engineer or a data scientist or a computer scientist, and that's kind of the things that we wanted to focus on when we did this training program and aside from the training program we were doing kind of something called the data chat across the organization and our social channels, like internal social channels, to just make make people here that data is ready for everybody and as an organization, as we're transforming, data has becoming part of our regular kind of assets or things that we work with every day. Just like you sit on your computer, you realize how much data you're working with everything. So just that recognition that data is not really a technical thing is just whenever you're filling an account application for a client, you're working with data, and that just helps them see how much this is part of our day to their work. Really now May. Before rapping up, I think what's exciting about the data ambassador program is that really broadens accessibility and inclusion for data science with then Golf Bank, but I'd love to discuss how to broaden data science and stem in general across the board. You know, both of us come from the air world and you being the first female chief day officer, and quit read my your journey and how you've paved the way for other female reader leaders, especially from the region. What do you think needs to change so that data science becomes even more accessible and diverse? Today? I think one of the things is, as we you know, as and and to me I was always passionate about, you know, having more women in tech, and now I like doing the same thing with women and data and and just making it available for everybody. I think, and I remember when I first worked in tech, it was I was always the only girl when I was in college or and the it department, the first department, I was always kind of you know, it's hard for that inclusion to happen, but to happen back then, in twenty years ago, but I think right now it's it's much easier because when in my generation there was not no tech leaders who were women for us to look up to as young girl who's, you know, going into college or finishing high school or doing the stemp program it was hard for us to find those kind of female leaders to look up to an and want to be somebody. You know what, I'd be like them. Right now it's so much different and I'm just very happy and I think the way we're seeing how much leadership is being diverse right now is really a promising change. But I think one of the things that you know, also organization need to invest...

...in is to make sure that this leadership is a hundred percent diverse, because once you have that diversity in leadership, it will automatically reflect on the younger kind of staff and then that will kind of reflect on the overall kind of community or organization that we have. And I think making it, as I said, like when we're trying to do this inveastive program, we're trying to make it available for everybody. I don't think everybody will be anybody will be afraid, from you know, of data anymore, and that's how once, once we try to normalize it, people won't be to kind of annoy by saying okay, you're you're working with data, or afraid or kind of just scared of that. Oh I need to do the thing. I think it's not a an and the same thing we had with with technical where people like, Oh, I'm not technically that's the first thing I hear a lot of people when they talk to me. I'm not technical, but I said, Don we're not talking tack here. And even you know, if you if you do some stuff in your computer, you might be doing already these technical things. So I think the youth, they they do have a lot of more potential right now, just because, you know, back in my age there's no all these tem programs going on for kids. Right now, my kids are five and seven and and you know there's some coding program that we're playing around to it. I've never think that back in my age, but now these programs are available, the tools are fun to do it and I think once we have more kind of diverse leadership, I don't think well, you know, I think the feature is much greater. That's amazing. Finally, my any final words before we wrap up today? No, just thank you and Dylan. Thank you, data camp for this. Honestly, and and I love how data camp is making data for everybody. That's something that I, you know, kind of preach for here, is that data's really for everyone and and we want to make sure that for the future that we're going in, before this digital future that everybody's going through. I think, like I said, it does not speriod, it does not too takey. Datas for everybody and and there's a lot of resources out there if you have just a tiny interest, you know, learning something about it, whether online or in your organization. I think it will open up a lot of aspects in your career. Thank you, Ma, for coming on data frame. Thank you. This is you've been listening to data framed, a podcast by data camp. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player. Please give us a rating, leave a comment and share episodes you love. That helps us keep delivering insights into all things data. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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